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CompactFlash is not dead and SanDisk, Sony and Nikon want to make it better

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Today SanDisk, Sony and Nikon "announced the joint development of a set of specifications that address the future requirements of professional photography and video markets." Those specifications were submitted to the CompactFlash Association and the goal is to standardize the CompactFlash format. The proposed specifications target "Professional photography and High Definition (HD) video applications":

  • Data transfer rates of up to 500 megabytes per second (using the PCI Express interface)
  • Extend the theoretical maximum capacities beyond 2 terabytes
  • Low power consumption achieved by power scaling system to extend battery life
  • Improved physical ruggedness and reliability
  • It seems that they also proposed a physical improvement to the existing CF cards: "similar in size to a CompactFlash® card, the new specifications' access control function and highly durable form factor produce a combination of physical ruggedness and reliability that is indispensable for professional usage models"

The new specifications are clearly targeted for high-end DSLR cameras with HD video, which indicates that future Nikon pro models will continue to use CompactFlash cards. It is also interesting to see that only Sony and Nikon were part of this joint development (FYI: Canon is also a member of the CompactFlash Association).

The full news release can be found here.

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  • http://deeperlight.com Cyrano76

    But the price? Just have to wait and see. And really, first? If so, cool :D It’s a first for me too.

    And as always, thanks nikonrumor dude! You and your site rock!

    • http://nikonrumors.com/ [NR] admin

      yea, the pictured 64GB Extreme Pro CF is $520!

      • http://www.dishler.com jon D

        I have two of those 64GB Extreme Pro CF in my D3s and they rock. The big advantage of CF is that they are 16 bit and not 8 bit like the SD cards which can never be as fast. Also the CF cards seem much more substantial in use.
        NR is my favorite site on the internet, keep up the great work!
        I am curious, what Nikon Camera stuff do you own, it would be an interesting post?

        • http://bit.ly/9NIXQ David Hasselblaff

          One thing to point out here is that the new CF cards will use a different socket due to an altered pin configuration (no backwards compatibility). Last year a SATA based CF card format was announced, which did not see many uses so far.

        • NikoDoby

          Would your head explode if I told you the “Nikonrumor Dude” (aka Admin) was a canon user! Shhh nobody’s suppose to know :)

          • Banned

            I wouldn’t be surprised as he also owns a bunch of other rumors websites for other brands. No need to own the goods to talk about it on the Internet.

            • http://nikonrumors.com/ [NR] admin

              No, I never owned a Canon camera, I do however own a Leica and three M lenses. The photorumors.com website is basically for Nikon owner who wants to know what other manufacturers are up to.

            • http://nikonrumors.com/ [NR] admin

              I even own a Nikon Coolpix 3700 – I think this is still one of the smallest p&s cameras ever produced, it even has a OVF :) Talking about standards – this camera was supposed to work with normall Duracell CP1 batteries which were available in stores for a while. The concept was great, but it never took off.

            • http://nikonrumors.com/ [NR] admin

              this is the Coolpix 3700:
              Nikon Coolpix 3700

          • I AM sort-of NIKON

            Further more Nikodoby, he never claims to be a Nikon “fanboy”. He’s actually said on several occasions over the past year that he owns Canons as well as Nikons, and if anything, it makes him a source that’s far less biased than others. If he says that some new Nikon gadget is good, you should probably check it out….he’s just a cool dude with a lot of info. It’s all good. I’m not gonna lie, my mind did kinda get boggled the first time I heard though. ;) :)

            • http://nikonrumors.com/ [NR] admin

              For those of you who don’t visit the NR Forum probably don’t know that NikoDoby (who is a moderator) has a great sense of humor :) I should probably write this in the disclaimer.

          • NikyDobo

            Please do a search we’ve already discussed this several times.

            • PhotoGradStudent

              lol +1

          • 2cents

            The admin presents wonderful information and great rumors! I come to this site daily for the rumors and comments. Go Admin! Keep up the great work.
            p.s. – I’m bi-shooter, I shoot with both.

            • http://nikonrumors.com/ [NR] admin

              Thanks!

        • The invisible man

          When I bought my D700 (already sold) I had 2 CF 4Gb and I also bought a very expensive (but very fast) firewire card reader.

          I like the CF better because I keep loosing my SD cards, they are too small and too thin.

          I’m still hopping that the D800/900 will have CF cards slots so I keept my firewire card reader, I wonder if I should sale it while it still have some value.

          • GlobalGuy

            AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO -HATES- THAT SONY IS INVOLVED IN THIS!!?!?!?

            If Sony does it, I want to be able to opt-out.

            Nikon has its own tendencies towards closed systems — but Sony and Apple are the devil when it comes to this.

            • Sony

              Sony has tendencies towards closed systems with crippled functionalities that are not disclosed to buyers and incompatibilities even using open standards.

              I remember my Sony VAIO whose bluetooth didn’t talk to non-Sony phones, Sony support said they don’t support non-Sony phones bluetooth! In that case I fixed it by finding the watcom driver for the watcom bt chip it used. Here I suspect any Sony CF in this new standard won’t work with anything else anyone else makes.

        • PHB

          For a still camera the memory speed is hardly a desperate concern.

          The speed of the memory bus is precisely irrelevant since the bus on SDXC can run at much higher speeds than any compact flash memory is capable of. The bottleneck is the memory chip, not the bus.

          I dislike CF because of the fragile little pins. Worse, those fragile little pins are there to be broken on the camera. I can do without that. I can’t see a good way to fix that. Extra pads like they have on SDXC can’t help there.

          The only point I can see to this format is either for ultra HD video (4K or beyond) or as a standard for Laptop Flash Drives.

          I have a significant collection of expensive CF cards. I have several that I paid $240 for, not that I would ever see a use for a 16Mb card these days.

          I am quite happy to see the end of CF. It is not a pro format in my view, it is an obsolete format. I guess there will be slots on the flagship bodies for some time to come. But I don’t mind that much as long as I have the choice of SD as well.

          • The invisible man

            Ok,
            I’m selling my firewire card reader, thanks !
            :o

          • Anonymous

            PHB

            I cannot agree with you more. You perfectly described the problems with the CF.

            CF is a stoneage standard with those terrible pins. I had quite few of the that just got oxidated. Yes, I took pictures in rainy days changed the card and even though I wiped it I couldn’t clean the those little pinholes. Sure over time the got screwed up. I hate CF for big time.

            There will be a new SD format next year that will have two layers of connectors which would increase speed. But again, the chip speed has to be increased and the content volume.

        • http://larry-bolch.com Larry Bolch

          I still have a Shutterbug magazine from the year 2000 and the B&H ad shows a Sandisk 192MB for $479.95. We live in wonderful times.

      • ZoetMB

        The “list price” on it is $896!

        At $525 (which I believe is the current B&H price), that’s $8.20 a gig. A 32GB SD card is about $6.22 a gig. So you’re paying less than 20% more for 3x the speed (90MB/s vs. 30MB/s). I think that’s worth it.

        The 16MB SanDisk Ultra (30MB/s) sells for $65 ($4.06 a gig). The 16MB San Disk Extreme SD card (30MB/s) sells for $109 ($6.81 a gig). So CF is generally less expensive than SD. Considering that pro cameras use CF and lower-level cameras use SD, you’d think it would be the other way around.

        And prices are constantly (although not consistently) dropping.

        Upgrading CF is fine, but I think they’re making a big mistake if there’s no compatibility. The old cards have to work in new cameras that take the new format cards. If they don’t, then there’s no point even calling it a CF card. They should call it something else.

        • ZoetMB

          Sorry, there’s some typos above. In the 2nd paragraph, I obviously meant 16GB, not 16MB.

  • NikonFF&DxUser

    2TB of memory from a compact flash is great. A 32MB Nikon FX DLSR camera with HD 1080 is even better. In five years for the camera? In two years for the memory?

    • WoutK89

      EDIT: 32MP, or did you mean MegaBytes?

      • Panfruit

        I wish Nikon would include built-in memory! :P more than 32mb though — like 2gb at least. :)

  • poizen22

    should add competition to sd XC. this new cf card seems to be majorly based on prooven but dated tech. where as sd xc is all new stuff. should make this new cf card cheaper then sdxc.

    • zzddrr

      poizen22

      It will not be cheaper due to lower volume and higher manufacturing costs. My guess is that SD XC will outsell this new CF beauty by 1,000,000 to 1 ratio. What are these two smoking Nikon and Sony? Sony screwed upp all possible formats except the blu-ray.

      • Banned

        I fear for blu-ray, too many noobs are using streaming nowadays.

      • http://www.flickr.com/photos/shigzeo/ shigzeo

        You forgot MD, DAT, and CD. Blu-Ray was never a contender in the same way that the above were/are. CD, after nearly 30 years of mass production, is winding down (way down). DAT is still used by a lot of concert recorders, and back in the end of the 1990′s there were many countries where the portable MD outstripped the CD player for portable use.

        In America where things are picked up very slowly, MD and DAT may not have shown their faces, but abroad, they were huge in their respective niches.

        • WoutK89

          actually CD was a co-invention of Philips and Sony what I recall

          • Anonymous

            CD was invented by Philips.

            • Jabs

              @Anonymous
              The CD format was co-Invented by BOTH Phillips and Sony.
              Phillips invented the IDEA and Sony invented HOW TO MAKE the idea a working PRODUCT, hence they both share in it – FACTS!

            • Anonymous

              My point was the idea was inveted by Philips. Also, Philips inveted the cassette tape and if I am right the DAT.

      • iamlucky13

        No…Bluray is their most successful screw-up. It was in some technical ways better than HD-DVD, but they got in bed with MPAA to take what could have been a good physical storage and weighed it down with a stack of digital rights management that adds up to weak protection of the content, but a huge hassle to those who might otherwise get the same flexibility out of Bluray as we did from CD’s and DVD’s. It also adds substantially to the cost of the hardware.

        Unfortunately, movie studios were reluctant to produce HD-DVD content because of the illusion of copyright protection on Bluray.

        At least, that’s my two cents.

        Compact Discs were developed by both Sony and Philips. Philips pioneered the technology. Sony started developing it in parallel, and they joined forces to commercialize it.

        • Banned

          Rights management is the least of anybody’s problem. This can and will be cracked, just like the DVD rights management was.

          The problem for the acceptance of BD is the competition from streaming.

          • Anonymous

            Banned,

            I think the price is the biggest problem. DVDs are already fairly good quality. If you don’t have a good TV set then it is hard to see the difference. Then why would you pay 2-3 times more for a Blueray disc than the already ok dvd? I think that’s the biggest issue. On the other hand streaming makes that cost difference even bigger but more people buy DVDs than stream.

          • ZoetMB

            Blu-ray software is going to achieve close to $1.5 billion in sales this year in the U.S. alone (it’s at $1.133 billion as of 11/21). That’s not exactly a failure, especially considering the poor worldwide economy. And that’s still only a 14% market share as compared with DVD sales, so there’s plenty of room for growth.

            Blu-ray titles, which were originally very expensive, are quickly dropping. There’s plenty of Blu-ray titles at the $10 mark. And there are plenty of Blu-ray players at the $150 mark. So within another year or so, you’re going to start seeing DVD-only players phase out (especially in the mid- and top-lines.)

            For those who want quality, they want Blu-ray. There’s no streaming out there today that provides anything near Blu-ray quality. Some people want that. Other people prefer convenience over quality and those people will stream. There’s plenty of room in the market for both – one does not necessarily replace the other. Even the same consumer may want Blu-ray for titles they deem collectible and want to watch many times and will stream titles that are “throwaway” titles.

  • zzddrr

    1) this will never compete when it comes to price due to low volumes

    2) this may lock us up further into their systems

    3) how long will it take to develop something useful? I mean the speed nikon delivered something beyond 12MP … now do the math … couple of more years

    4) this may backfire when other cameras will catch up in quality …. lower initial investment

    I think they should have worked out a new SD standard. So ny already got screwed up with their own sony card format, didn’t they learn something?

    So what’s next? Wait another year?

    • zzddrr

      One more comment, I don’t mind the CF cards in the future if they somehow get rid of the hundreds of pins and turn it to something similar as the SDs are (I was talking about the connector).

      • zzddrr

        And this is the best one … the great connectivity. Not one laptop has nowadays CF slots. I think this move is rather smart. Let’s ensure that our pros have to run around card readers etc. they can only buy from the above two companies because we will not see high speed wireless from Nikon for sure. My only hope is that Nikon will be actually capabale of producing card readers with usb plugs. The way Nikon supplies new products I would not be surprised they would start selling the camera and 6 months later some memory cards and 2 months later some card readers. I am not sure they thought this through seriously. :-)

        • Ren Kockwell

          And there it is. And you were doing so well! Three nice posts in a row without bitching about Nikon product delivery speed. We won’t see that kind of streak again…

          • NikonFF&DxUser

            Yeah, he Kocked well with the posts…

          • zzddrr

            Ren, I was even worried that I was doing so well :-)

            • aetas

              You had a pretty good run i have to agree. I think that when we get a d800 out here you might have a few stored away.

          • zzzz

            ah your nemesis… I find it amusing and funny but you are becoming just as predictable. I guess we all just have a bone to pick. lol

        • Jabs

          @zzddrr,
          IF you would only take as much time to EXPLAIN as you perhaps COMPLAIN here about changes in the Industry, perhaps you would be of benefit to us here.
          Being left behind in technology and then clueless is no fun, eh?

          BTW – there ARE laptops with CF card readers and the reason WHY they have declined is called USB 1.1 to 2.0 and the move away from PCMCIA adapters (direct connection to the motherboard) to Express Card adapters which are SMALLER (laptops got smaller bub, hence LESS real estate for BIG slots) PLUS faster bandwidth and thus you have to BUY an adapter as the Express Card slot is too small – see how simple that was???
          The Firewire ports are also disappearing especially the Firewire 800 variety.
          NOTE to YOU:
          Intel is about ready to introduce a new optical standard that probably will replace all of these soon – go read about it, as knowledge and the REASONS behind things often preclude complaining, as in YOU knowing WHY a thing occurs – beats ignorance!
          Get up to speed and almost EVERYTHING does change, except maybe ignorance – LOL!

          • Anonymous

            @Jabs,

            I do not want to defend ZZDDRR but he did not address you personally. Perhaps you are also primitive ignorant type aren’t you? :-)

            I 100% agree what zzdddrr said above. He was not giving technical explanation but explained the issue using common sense. We don’t need the big technical voodoo. What he said:

            1- Price issue

            2- Usability (lots of pins)

            3-Development time

            4-General acceptance by other industry players (and you just refered to something Intel is working on)

            5-Connectivity/compatibility

            I think he was spot on without telling technical stuff.

            • Jabs

              @Annymous.
              Maybe you are reading comprehension challenged also.
              There are LAPTOPS with CF card readers currently being made and the old PCMIA interface being replaced for being SLOW .
              The PROBLEM is bandwidth starvation in ALL current CF cards and thus these manufacturers are addressing that plus the interface that the cards USED was too slow (got saturated easily) as in parallel versus a NEWER serial interface with a direct CONNECTION to the newer processors as in NO more North Bridge as in the new Intel QPT and AMD Direct Connect of maybe five years ago.
              They are are NOT using much parallel interfaces NOW in computers, so nothing to connect it to – duh!!!
              The current problems have NOTHING to do with the new proposals as we DO NOT know what form or shape they will have.
              An assumption that they will be exactly like the previous ones, makes BOTH of you clearly fools as the article DID NOT state that.
              My introduction to Intel’s efforts was in describing an OPTICAL link that is faster than this NEW standard and thus both of you are clearly clueless and behind the times.
              Some morons like to complain while others prefer to SEE HOW things develop.
              Some like to expose their own ignorance as in trying to be the center of attention here while IGNORANT to lots of facts EVEN if you explain it to them plainly – they are called DENSE!
              Got it?
              LOL!
              Voodoo = NONSENSE or a fool hoodwinking YOU – you figure that out Sherl-Ack.

            • Anonymous

              @Jabs

              I did not call you moron did I? Perhaps if you that you are moron then I don’t understand where you are coming from? At least can’t see which cave you left.

              Now, once I nicely welcomed you I guess I can suggest to take out another pair of glasses and go back to rtead what i said.

              All I said that I think what zzddrr said makes sense. It does not contain any technological explanation but the issues are valid. Did you read this. I think that zzddrr raised other than technical issues. But those issues are valid.

              Now, I am familiar with the Intel new light standard and it is quite possible that this will take off. We’ll see. You did raise valid points that had nothing to do with zz’s points.

              Now, once you take your pills and calm down we can discuss other matters.

            • Jabs

              @Anonymous.
              Again, let me explain.
              Zzddrr – like many here are complaining about the current CF cards and we have here a NEW standard being called a CF card with NO description of what it will look like, its’ pin structure, size or such and then people complain about the PAST products probably used by clumsy or clueless persons.
              EVEN if they have valid complaints, they do NOT refer to the UNKNOWN new items as we don’t know how it will be made as in NOT a product YET.
              CLEAR enough now or did I pour cold water on this nonsense and cause you to wake up?
              VALID points about what – an unknown and unreleased product or IDEA?
              One complains about the past released product and then expect this to transfer or relate also to the newly announced or proposed STANDARD that is not even a released product yet?
              Does that make any sense?

    • Honza

      Please no SD in pro cameras! SDs are so small and manipulation with them is so bad. Pros need something in hand, when manipulatint in gloves and so on. But I agree with pin problems!

      • Anonymous

        Use a plier! You can get a decent grip with it trust me.

        • jdsl

          LOL!
          Underarm puller will do :)

      • PO

        Oh dear, clumsy people with big hands! Let’s change our standards to use 3.5″ SSD for storage!

        Seriously, you AmeriCans have big hands but the rest of the world actually DO handle SD cards without issues, even with gloves. Last thing I want is to plug in those 40 pins of a CF using gloves not feeling if I’m aligned properly.

  • NikonFF&DxUser

    I know this way off topic but someone might find this helpful. Few Nikon D7000 kit is available at Cameta.com

    http://www.cameta.com/index.cfm?fa=display.search&page=1&keywords=Nikon%20D7000

    Check it out before they sold out. Just ordered one for my wife.

    Good luck!

    • zzddrr

      $1,349.95 ??? and already Out of Stock. I guess Nikon should re-brand it self to “Out of Stock”. :-) Good luck for those who managed to get one.

      • NikonFF&DxUser

        Get the kit while you can and sell the lens.

        • zzddrr

          I might endup doing that.

      • Honza

        In stock everywhere here at Europe, you should look outside your fish pond ;)

        • Mock Kenwell

          Yeah, and pay through the nose with the various VAP costs. What a great idea.

  • Ren Kockwell

    I know CF is supposed to be more durable, but my only fails have come from CF cards & those damn pins…

    • Arthur

      Everybody is ranting about those pins!? While I agree it is vulnerable on paper, I never heard someone with a “pin-problem”… I think you guys are exaggerating big time!

      I prefer CF cards for their speed and size. However, I like the SD cards that they are compatible almost everywhere, and that you can put them in most computers without an extra reader.

      • zzzz

        aaaah common sense

        I agree

        • Matstar

          +1000

      • Greg Webb

        So you and your friends have been lucky so far – congratulations! I’ve broken one, I know others have, and once you’ve seen that bent pin staring out and know you’ve lost the camera for a couple of weeks minimum for a problem that doesn’t exist with more modern memory cards, you won’t be very keen to stay on CF either.

        • http://nikonrumors.com/ [NR] admin

          I have never broken a CF card, but I did trow one of my SD cards away recently because the lock pin on the site broke and left the card in a “lock” position. I tried to unlock it with a pin but I couldn’t.

          This just reminded me that CF cards don’t have a lock function – not a big deal, but I use it regularly.

      • Mock Kenwell

        I’m not a fan of one or the other. If CF can take us forward better than SD then so be it. But the “durability” of CF cards is overstated in my opinion. As I’ve stated, I’ve never had an SD fail, but have had three CFs fail. Two mechanically failed and one failed internally. One for bent pins, one for clogged receiver holes and one for corrupted guts. The bigger size and harder plastic mean nothing. The durability is all about the connection site. In that regard, SD is far less vulnerable. I whole-heartedly agree though that the pin-connection method is based on a dated technology that was originally intended for far less activity.

        And Sony’s flimsy Memory Sticks suck the worst.

  • Ren Kockwell

    And $520? Yow.

    • WoutK89

      its the old CF card’s price

  • Kingyo

    stop shoving your CF cards in the wrong way and you won’t bend the pins ;)

  • Phil

    Yeah, not a good idea. This sounds almost like something Nikon had to go along with Sony with so they can get their sensor yields. However, considering how proprietary Nikon was in earlier times, I suppose both companies are equally delusional.

  • Manolito

    Dear Nikon, Sony and SanDisk: I lost a camera (Konica-Minolta A2) to a bent pin. Maybe it was my fault, no problem admitting that, but it doesn’t change the fact that SD cards are safer. And the future.

  • Anonymous

    New cameras may come with no card slot (waste of space and resources), just internal 64GB memory & USB socket will be ok. I rarely take the new 16GB CF out of my D700. Transfer cable is enough.

    • Mike

      You waste a lot of camera battery (or conversely, you need to make sure you have enough battery power left), when you download via USB cable direct from camera. I tried that once with my old D80 and it’s a noticeable drain on the battery. That was with 2GB cards too. I would imagine you would drain the whole battery downloading 64GB, let alone having to tell the wedding to stop so you can free up some camera space. ;-)

      • RMT

        My D7000 keeps disconnecting after downloading each picture with Nikons NX software.
        I have to remove the cards and use a card reader separately.
        Anybody else have this problem?

    • Roger Moore

      I doubt that fixed memory is going to be a satisfactory answer. No matter how much memory you decide to put in the camera, it’s going to be the wrong amount for some users. Users who rarely use more than a couple of gigs are going to be paying for a lot of unused memory, which isn’t going to make your camera any more popular. And users who need more than whatever amount you specify are going to see the lack of removable memory as a deal breaker.

  • Brian

    I’m not thrilled about “upgrading” my 50 CF cards to a new format. That sort of expense I can do without. Recognizing this is just a proposal, and even if implemented will be years away, I’m not convinced the additional speed/capacity is of much benefit to stills photographers. My D3/D700′s have never saturated their buffers with the existing UDMA cards I own. Videographers may be more interested. Also, from a risk management perspective, I use 4GB cards exclusively so I see no benefit in larger card sizes. These cards recently cost me about $25 a piece… no way I’m paying $500+ for a 64GB card with the risk of losing so many images if the card crashes. That’s just silly.

    • Mike

      + 100

      • The invisible man

        +1000

    • Greg Webb

      And no way the cards will cost $500 or your existing cards will have a new retail value of $1250 (pro or not, that’s a _huge_ stack of cards for a single shooter!) by the time this sort of thing comes round. This is a couple of years out at minimum and no camera company is daft enough to release a model that needs a $500 memory card, pro model or not, when everyone else’s can use $10 memory cards.

      I had the same discussion with someone when they justified a D3 with ‘more than 12MP is too expensive to store the pictures’ – problem is they’d been on a D2x for a few years before that, happily storing at a greater cost / MB than even a D3x at that point.

      Storage drops in price, has done for years and is likely to continue for the foreseeable future. Don’t dismiss the next generation because you couldn’t afford it now!

  • Anonymous

    Hey, I’ve just found an article about D800 on wikileaks.org

    Due to limited production volume, it will be only sold to people who can pass the online qualificaion exam about photography knowledge & skills. Here is an example question:

    Which aperture below should you use set at 1/1000 and ISO 800 to maintain the same exposure with the combination of f/8, 1/60, ISO 400?

    a) f/1.4
    b) f/2
    c) f/2.8
    d/f/4
    e) f/5.6

    • WoutK89

      I would say f/2.8

      • WoutK89

        Actually, correction, it is f/2.0

        1/1000s –> 1/60s = 5 stops
        ISO 400 –> ISO 800 = -1 stop
        f/8 – 4 stops = f/5.6-f/4.0-f/2.8 – f/2.0

        • Anonymous

          First answer was correct. Logic above is ok except for the difference of 1/1000s –> 1/60s is 4 stops in fact.

          1/1000 –> 1/500 = 1 stop
          1/1000 –> 1/250 = 2 stops
          1/1000 –> 1/125 = 3 stops
          1/1000 –> 1/60 = 4 stops

          Sometimes finger counting avoids simple mistakes…

          Anybody don’t take it serious, but if they asked 10 questions like this about basic principles of photography, I bet 80% of potential D800 buyers would fail to pass (5 correct answers out of 10).

    • Scott

      Five stops difference, so F/1.4

    • Jabs

      Actually YOU did not give us a complete ‘picture’ or it is not clear enough!
      F8 = old aperture?
      1/60 = old shutter speed?
      400 = old ISO?

      Are you asking us the equivalent F-stop at 1/1000 shutter speed and ISO 800 as the NEW equivalent exposure VALUE to the above exposure?

    • Jabs

      @Anonymous.
      You posted this mumbo-jumbo:
      Which aperture below should you use set at 1/1000 and ISO 800 to maintain the same exposure with the combination of f/8, 1/60, ISO 400?

      a) f/1.4
      b) f/2
      c) f/2.8
      d/f/4
      e) f/5.6

      If you mean – give me the exposure VALUE or equivalence of a shot at F8, 1/60 second @ISO 400 WHEN you give us everything BUT the required F-stop for an equivalent exposure?
      A riddle for you and then let someone naive answer it – LOL.
      ISO scale:
      25, 50, 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600 and then 3200 or even rarely 6400.
      Shutter speed scale:
      1/60th sec., 1/125th sec., 1/250th sec., 1/500th sec.,1/1000 sec., and above.

      NOW, tell us if these are FULL STOPS, 1/3rd stops or 2/3rd stops in BOTH ISO and Shutter speeds and then post the LENS F-stops in FULL stops, 1/3rd stops and then 2/3rd stops – REAL photographer here and F3 USER plus grew up on Fujichrome Pro, Ektachrome Pro and Kodachrome Pro plus various B+W films plus I pushed and pulled them to get the EXPOSURE values or even exposure RATINGS that I wanted or needed just to get the shot.

      Let us see if you can do anything besides copy from web sites – LOL!

  • Scott

    Looks like Canon is on board with this too. (kinda)
    “This ultra high-speed media format will enable further evolution of hardware and imaging applications, and widen the memory card options available to CompactFlash users such as professional photographers,” said Mr. Shigeto Kanda, Canon, and chairman of the board, CFA. “This next generation format is expected to be widely adapted to various products, including those other than high-end DSLRs.”

    • http://nikonrumors.com/ [NR] admin

      I think this dude represents the CFA and not Canon

      • Scott

        That is why I said “kinda”. He is the Canon representative on the board AND the current chairman of the CFA. Of course I realize this was really just Nikon, Sony & Sandisk but listing Mr Kanda as being from Canon made it seem like Canon was somehow involved in this too.

  • noxin

    I’m a little surprised that Sony isn’t pushing one of their own technologies like they usually do (unless it is, and they have Nikon on board). Maybe they learned their lesson with Beta, their minidisk, and their memory stick that only they use…

  • AnonymousAlso

    So internal memory does not take space and resources? What if it reaches it’s MTTF? You have to go to the service center, have them solder and replace the internal memory from the board?

  • Greg Webb

    Yet another person here who had a camera immediately immobilised by bent pin with a CompactFlash card being inserted in a hurry. The phyiscal interface is just a small version of the old, entirely static laptop memory cards and simply wasn’t designed for applications where they would be regularly removed and replaced – the pins can and do get bent, the holes in the cards can and do get blocked. Either can cripple your camera in an instant.

    SD, on the other hand, is nearly foolproof – with flat plate contacts on the card and rolling ball contacts inside the device, I defy anyone to break the device simply by inserting a card.

    I’m glad to hear that there’s a group looking to develop the memory cards we’ll need in the future, not just for the next few years but for a proper long-term horizon. But I really, really wish they were doing it aorund a safer physical interface than CompactFlash, which I never want to have to use again.

    • Mock Kenwell

      +1

    • DaveBagain

      Actually, CF cards use an implementation of the EIDE interface. That’s the one that older hard drives (parallel interface) use. I’ve been using CF cards as hard disk replacements in single board computer data collection systems. The adapter boards that allow me to plug CF cards into the 40 (or 44) pin EIDE connector are just socket adapters (no active components).

      These are pretty fast, but if speed is of concern, I’m surprised that there are no proposals based on ESATA or USB-3. ESATA is very fast and is commonly used. USB-3 is just starting to appear, but also has the speed necessary for video or long-bursts. The “pin benders” will like them too because they both use only a few connections like SDHC and can be ruggedized.

  • Luke

    What about CFast? I though that was suppose to fix the speed barrier of CF.

    • ArTourter

      My thoughts precisely.

      CFast pretty much answers all the concern outlined here. It use SATA instead of PATA, with transfer rate up to 6Gb/s (750MB/s, higher than what they seem to want to achieve). to handle that sort of speed you would have to use PCIe anyway so that’s not really a requirement. Using SATA instead of PATA also gets rid of the 2TB size limit although that is also a filesystem problem. The will still have the same problem if they keep on using FAT32 as the filesystem (unfortunately, they will probably end up using the completely closed and proprietary Microsoft ExFAT instead as they did with SDXC, but that is another rant)

      CFast also gets rid of the -much discussed here- pins problem.

      Yet the card is exactly the same size, so design-wise, manufacturers do not have to rethink too much space use inside their gear.

      I think the main reason why so far CFast has not taken off is because it seems to have been created without the industry behind it. The cards have very slowly become available, a small numbers of readers are also available but no actual product uses them.

      I guess it is one of these chicken and egg problem: manufacturer are not going to use this technology until is it widely available, but it won’t be available until things use the technology.

      I am wondering what the Compact Flash Organisation (also behind CFast specs) are going to reply to Sandisk, Nikon and co): “Err guys? thank you for your comments but you are kind of 5 years out of date here, you might want to have a look at what already exist (which you seem you have been completely ignoring until now) and use that instead.”

  • The invisible man

    I have a feeling that this announcement for the new CF cards means a D900 & D4 before Xmas…..
    :o

  • http://jdorseydesign.com Bart

    New Cameras should have a ton of fast internal memory and built in Wifi (and USB syncing for times you don’t have wifi). It should be easy to move stuff on and off the camera via the Wifi, and also do neat things like upload straight to websites etc from the camera.

    I’m convinced more and more that these companies also need to get out of the business of writing software. I wish someone made a DSLR body that an iPhone or Android phone would slide into the back and provide all the software controls instead of those stupid menus cameras have now.

    • Anonymous

      and welcome to camera-virus :)

      • The invisible man

        Reason why I NEVER download the pictures directly from the camera but always use the card.

  • Funduro

    This is normal industry forward thinking. Maybe the standard would allow a wireless version(ala Wi-Fi) to be available for G4 networks to upload to social networks and transfers to desktops (ala Bluetooth). I can see using new the devices sending images and movies to 50″ flat panel TV’s ((ala slide projectors) without wires.

  • Jabs

    Hey,
    It seems like most of you missed the ‘boat’ clearly, as perhaps you are not computer savvy.
    The KEY point of this development was leaving PATA and going to PCI-E or the equivalent of going from a SLOW PATA (parallel interface) to a serial (SATA or PCI-E) interface with its’ corresponding multiplication of BANDWIDTH and hence speedier transfers.
    I swear that people comment and complain here WITHOUT either reading or even understanding the concepts being revealed or discussed. It is like Politics here or a bevy of ‘SarahPalinists’ going ‘Oooopsie’ and clueless as all get up.
    Let me spell it out for you clearly:
    The NEW development takes us into a NEW ERA of ability and gets us away from OLD technology and it might become a WORKABLE standard like how PCI-E and SATA 6g replaced all the old parallel interfaces. Maybe most of you have not realized that bandwidth starvation is a MAJOR problem in the digital world, as if you have ever used and COMPARED USB 3.0 (the new standard) to USB 2.0 or USB 1.1 or ever used Firewire 400 -vs- Firewire 800 or even used SCSI arrays -versus- IDE (renamed PATA) drives and PCI -versus- PCI-E 1, 2 or now ’3′ – then you will perhaps understand the significance of this NEW standard.
    It is all about blazing THROUGHPUT now missing from ANY interface and thus get up to speed and STOP complaining.
    KNOWLEDGE often replaces complaining, as you understand the CONCEPTS being revealed and then LEAVE alone the POLITICS of the issues, as that is where idiots often rally or is their domain.
    LOL!
    Your old camera just got obsoleted and now adapters will probably flood the market!
    Welcome to technological advances and BETTER standards that help us all.

    • Mock Kenwell

      I’m not sure which comments you’re referring to Jabs, but I’m also not sure why you’re being so incredibly hostile. Though I’m sure they’re out there, no pro photographers I know obsess about PATA or SATA standards. And shockingly, I don’t hold them in any lesser regard for it. There is a fairly gaping difference between knowing your equipment and being a full-blown spec nerd. As a photographer, you need to be aware of shifts in technology, but only so far as to understand how they might impact your business or productivity. Looking down on photographers not being engineers reflects poorly on your own politics.

      • Jabs

        @Mock Kenwell.
        Ignorance is NOT bliss.
        Serial interfaces are also in computers and in the internal and external drives that we all use NOW. The limitations of a parallel interface are well known and thus this relates to photography for ALL of us. How many of us DO NOT use a computer?
        Time to get up to speed as photography is tied to computers and it is time for an interface that does NOT slow us down.
        GOT IT???

  • R!

    blah blah blah ; SD for rookie , CF for Pro !! because of the size you will always be able to put more on the CF.

    • The invisible man

      What about the Kodachrome 64 ?
      No buffer, no pins, no images accidentally erase, that’s professional !

      • Anonymous

        Oh dear. Professional? Yes, maybe once upon a time…

        * You had to carry them (if on an assignment) as they were not easy to find
        * It was fixed iso :)
        * It was a trouble to keep safe from x-rays
        * You had to process them
        * You had to archive them
        * You had to scan them
        * Scan was equivelent to 10mp at best

        • The invisible man

          You forgot:
          - you have to BUY them.
          - you have to stock them in a freezer.
          - you have to wait and pay for the expensive processing (no more pre-paid processing).
          But that was FUN !!!

        • Jabs

          @Anonymous.
          From spanning two technologies, here are my answers to you.
          You posted this:
          * You had to carry them (if on an assignment) as they were not easy to find
          * It was fixed iso :)
          * It was a trouble to keep safe from x-rays
          * You had to process them
          * You had to archive them
          * You had to scan them
          * Scan was equivelent to 10mp at best

          1. Baloney – Fujichrome PRO and Kodachrome PRO were easily available in MAJOR cities of the world except Kodachrome is harder to find a Processor for just like it was in the old days and Kodak has now discontinued Kodachrome but NOT Ektachrome PRO. Fujichrome and Ektachrome both use widely available E-6 processing, so crap or your dreams.
          2. EVER heard of push or pull processing? Ever heard of an ISO dial on a film camera and exposure compensation +/-? Ever heard of Kodachrome Pro in SEVERAL ISO versions – 25, 64, 200 and Fujichrome PRO in 50D, 64T (Tungsten), 100, 400 and 1600 ISO?
          3. Ever heard of a Sima brand Super Film shield or other lead lined shield pouches and HAND INSPECTION. Ever took your Micro-drives through Airport X-rays? Maybe you are one of the clueless who also take all of your various cards through X-ray or other more powerful scanners and then get smug? WHAT century do you live in?
          4. You process digital files also.
          5. You archive digital files also – ever heard of a hard drive or optical disks?
          6. Agree on scanning!!! A scan from a good Kodachrome 25 Pro or Fujichrome 50D Pro or 64T Pro is above 10 megapixels even in 35mm, easily especially in 120, 220 or 4X5 and 8X10 sizes. GET REAL! Ever heard of drum scanners or knowing what you are doing?

          Clueless at nikonrumors, eh!

          • The invisible man

            Relax Jabs !
            I’m also from the old school and love shooting a roll of velvia 50 using a F100, but seriously, digital made photography easier, faster, cheaper, and most important, better than films !
            :o

            • Jabs

              @The invisible man.
              You know what is weird here – people make jokes about the past while NOT knowing it and thus I mock THEM in return.

              Digital has brought us forward and also brought us a little backwards and we became SMUG and conceited as in believing that everything digital is always better. That is plain arrogance and someone needs to address that here.
              I like digital and also film but I prefer to hone my craft and not take pot shots at others here because I believe that they are lost in the past.
              From the past or past problems come the future and if you do not understand or respect it, then you are doomed to make the same or worse mistakes – evidenced by many ignorant comments here.
              IT is about the final image and NOT the medium that you used – lost on many here while they laugh at the past.
              I have and still see images made on slide film that look way better than digital and therefore TECHNIQUE and knowledge transcends much. I look to better digital cameras and to a 16 to 24 bit pipeline. I love photography and there are too many smart asses here who need to be put in their places, so I make ‘em sweat – LOL.

              My way as I also have a wry sense of humor!
              Never used an F100 and probably would not like it (too small). In fact for 2011, I am planning on not only buying a new Nikon Pro digital camera (D4 series or such), but also an F5, an F4S and two F3′s plus a Fuji GX680 medium format camera to reconnect with my film days using both Fujichrome 50D and 64T, as I have been looking at some of my past ‘chromes’ and loved my techniques and results then. I have no issues with either the past or the future, as I span BOTH of them and can choose HOW to use each effectively PLUS I know how to do both, therefore way ahead of the game. Perhaps MORE learn this – rather than being cute and clueless here.
              Some get wiser with age and some YOUNG fools become OLD fools – which one are YOU and I becoming?
              LOL!

          • Anonymous

            I’m from the film era too. I never forget how I struggled to keep Velvia or Provia cartridges or rolls from heat or x-rays. Some officers refused hand inspecting. Truly never heard of lead pouches. Never push or pull processed, though I’m avare of what it is. Plus, color film above ISO200 were useless junk afaik. The company always drum-scanned my slides (and returned them greasy :[ ) Digital archiving is much easy than film.

            Is there anything left that digital cannot surpass film? Digital data may be lost, or storage media may become outdated; but even detoriated to a degree, film will remain forever (unless burt or shredded into tiny pieces)

            Oh forgot to say, maybe the excitement of waiting till the film was processed :)

      • Roger Moore

        Sure you could accidentally erase images. What do you think happened if you opened the camera at the wrong time?

  • Jabs

    For the technologically or comprehension challenged amongst us here:

    READ THIS – http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/new-pcie-based-compactflash-standard-promises-higher-speed-greater-capacity/10569

  • Peter B

    I believe you would have to open up 3 stops giving a f/2.8 to compensate.

  • aetas

    Just because something is new does not make it better. Every story has two sides. I like that companies are trying to get some new tech out there but people do have valid points as to the drawbacks of cf cards.

    • Anonymous

      I think the main issue will be the cost and availability. You won’t buy these cards at Coscto or any gas station.

    • Jabs

      @aetas and others here.

      I don’t see a description of HOW it will be made as in what will its’ format be as in similar to current designs, so premature griping is idiotic.

      • aetas

        True griping is idiotic, and if i was griping that would make sense as a comment. I was just pointing out the fact, ” like you kinda made” that we all need to see what is to come before complaining. If thats what you were hinting at with your comment. @ Anonymous
        I do see the first ones through to be expensive but maybe if its good enough tech it will become more mainstream and time will tell.

        • Jabs

          @aetas.
          I not only do photography, but I have also been in computers for years and thus an ardent computer USER.
          We complain too much here and do not understand the concepts being SOLVED, so hence my remarks.
          In simplicity – you are trying to put a size 12 foot (the images) into a size 10 shoe (the current card’s bandwidth) = what HD video and high resolution photography has reached as in getting the images off the camera, so new ways are needed while people complain and complain.
          USB 2.0 is too slow and USB 3.0 while much faster does not solve the problem, as the problem is the SLOW cards and interface of all the cameras and gear – plain enough???
          This updates the camera interface while people complain here about lousy OLD cards – what were you now saying?

          • aetas

            You seem to go off in a tangent once again. I dont personaly know or care if your a computer user, also the point i was trying to make again was the same as yours. Why are people complaining about something they dont have yet. Is that simple enough for you or do i need to rephrase it again. I agree with you…but your welcome to rant again.

            • aetas

              People should wait till they see a product to complain about its necessity or drawbacks.

            • Jabs

              @aetas,
              I read your response but many here try to purposely confuse the issues here, so I am addressing that also in MY own sly way – LOL!

              Yeah – complain about the unknown – REAL GENIUS!
              LOL!

              Have a good one and thanks for understanding.

  • http://www.eaglewheel.us bikinchris

    I think that Nikon could drop the idea of a built in buffer if these were introduced. That would make sports shooters happy. At the rate it moves information, it could even record 4k video (for those so inclined).

    Once these new CF cards drop in price, someone needs to make a box to clip them into to make a backup drive for your images. A box about the size of a pencil holder for your desktop would hold twenty 2Tb cards in parallel. That would make a great backup system with no moving parts to wear out.

    • Jabs

      @bikinichris.
      The main purpose of the BUFFER is to make sure that the camera writes to the card and does not lose the valuable DATA in the transfer process.
      MORE speed and larger data recorded, means a NEED for a larger and/or faster buffer and not to do away with it, as the camera would have to stop BETWEEN shots to write this data and even worse for video (not an OPTION) which writes at very high constant data rates, especially in HD or 4K, as in video, you write data plus timing and color signals and codes.

  • Jabs

    A Frank assessment here:
    Many of the underlying discussions here hinge upon ONE problem that people apparently have or maybe you can sense this.
    They choose their Technology or who to support/defend based NOT upon merit but upon which part of the WORLD that it came from.
    Germany and Europe = whatever
    Japan and Asia = whatever
    USA = I don’t know, as we don’t build much anymore but design much.

    You see and ‘smell’ this mess here and thus I try and clarify things here as much as I can possibly do as a human being.

    WHO makes it = immaterial to me.
    Progress is NOT defined by who or what part of the world you think a ‘super-brain’ or a great idea comes from.

    Greatness and also denseness is world-wide and thus perhaps YOU learn to celebrate the genius of ALL of humanity and our unique ability to solve problems without KILLING ourselves or even eradicating each other.

    MY two cents.

  • Matstar

    The BEST thing about CF is it’s build quality.

    All other quirky issues are quite insignificant IMO.

  • http://www.burcuustuner.com/EN/ Koray Ustuner

    I think with such a fast CF card, we will able to record RAW-Video near future with upcoming DSLR’s.
    What do you think?

  • http://flickr.com/vidaextinta Joaquim Prado

    No rumors about new FX models? Should I wait until february to buy a Digital camera? I have no rush and would be fun a new FX camera with FullHD already.

    I also have a question about why Nikon never update their film scanners, is there any special reason?

    thanks

    • http://www.eaglewheel.us bikinchris

      I realy think Nikon has not updated film scanners because of low sales figures. You MIGHT see one more model in my opinion, but I doubt that they will make more than that.

  • Marky Mark

    Sure but where is the follow-up to the D700. Get a grip Nikon…

  • Torben

    I guess that people who break pins can’t even put a stick in a turd without making a mess all over the place, i never had any problems with CF cards, on the other hand i had plenty with SD cards, they are even slow, feels “consumerish” and are designed for unisex people.

  • Muh-Kuh

    looks like a new feature for the D4 and D400 ….

    • Jabs

      @Muh-Kuh.
      Yes, exactly and also add USB 3.0 camera connections as many newer computers are now coming with this built-in. Happy days are coming SOON!
      LOL!

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